![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
I'm not getting much writing done today; I'm doing more reading about it ...
There's a current series of posts going 'round on the topic of cultural appropriation (something I think about a lot in regards to my own often-flawed attempts to write multicultural worlds). It begins here with Elizabeth Bear aka![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
matociquala's post on writing the "other" in speculative fiction. Then there is an open letter to Elizabeth Bear at Seeking Avalon, pointing out a problematic character in one of Bear's novels as symptomatic of the larger problem of poor representation of characters of color in SF. And, spawned off a comment thread in Bear's LJ, there is I Didn't Dream of Dragons by deepad which is, really, one of the best posts on the pain and harm of cultural appropriation and lack of representation in mainstream Western fiction that I've read. Then Elizabeth Bear responds to the "open letter" post in a way that is more open-minded than defensive, though that doesn't stop (white) people from getting defensive all over her comments. And shewhohashope has an insightful post about that defensive response. (These posts, and the comments to them, have a few more links as well.)
I thinkdeepad's post resonates for me in particular because it strikes to the heart of why I spend so much time thinking about this, and reading about it, and trying to fix the places where I've messed up and to mess up less on each project I try. Because when you don't do that -- when you write about universes peopled exclusively by white straight men, when you play at "diversity" by sticking a few token and stereotypical characters into the mix, when you ignore readers who tell you "Hey, you screwed up here" -- you hurt people. And I don't want to do that.
In a broader sense, of course, I write what is interesting to me. I want to write about a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, sexually diverse future because it's a fascinating place and because it's the way I think things are going to be; because the people I know are not a cultural, religious, ethnic, sexual-orientation monolith and I want to write about that, too. And I know that I haven't done the best job (to say the least) of depicting the diverse world I envision; in "Raven's Children", especially, I know that I messed up in some pretty fundamental ways, and Kismet is not without its share of problems as well. But I'm trying to fix my problems, and do better, because I want to write my escapist fantasies without having them be a poke in the eye to anyone else.
There's a current series of posts going 'round on the topic of cultural appropriation (something I think about a lot in regards to my own often-flawed attempts to write multicultural worlds). It begins here with Elizabeth Bear aka
matociquala's post on writing the "other" in speculative fiction. Then there is an open letter to Elizabeth Bear at Seeking Avalon, pointing out a problematic character in one of Bear's novels as symptomatic of the larger problem of poor representation of characters of color in SF. And, spawned off a comment thread in Bear's LJ, there is I Didn't Dream of Dragons by deepad which is, really, one of the best posts on the pain and harm of cultural appropriation and lack of representation in mainstream Western fiction that I've read. Then Elizabeth Bear responds to the "open letter" post in a way that is more open-minded than defensive, though that doesn't stop (white) people from getting defensive all over her comments. And shewhohashope has an insightful post about that defensive response. (These posts, and the comments to them, have a few more links as well.)I think
deepad's post resonates for me in particular because it strikes to the heart of why I spend so much time thinking about this, and reading about it, and trying to fix the places where I've messed up and to mess up less on each project I try. Because when you don't do that -- when you write about universes peopled exclusively by white straight men, when you play at "diversity" by sticking a few token and stereotypical characters into the mix, when you ignore readers who tell you "Hey, you screwed up here" -- you hurt people. And I don't want to do that. In a broader sense, of course, I write what is interesting to me. I want to write about a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, sexually diverse future because it's a fascinating place and because it's the way I think things are going to be; because the people I know are not a cultural, religious, ethnic, sexual-orientation monolith and I want to write about that, too. And I know that I haven't done the best job (to say the least) of depicting the diverse world I envision; in "Raven's Children", especially, I know that I messed up in some pretty fundamental ways, and Kismet is not without its share of problems as well. But I'm trying to fix my problems, and do better, because I want to write my escapist fantasies without having them be a poke in the eye to anyone else.
no subject
The most interesting revelation in this line was that Ursula LeGuin had this very strong racial vision for most of her novels (http://www.slate.com/id/2111107/). But then daughter of anthropologists, I would expect her to have her clear vision. I never pictured Ged as any color particularly, but having a skin color seemed to flesh him out for me.
no subject
2) Listen to advice, or don't. (Not all advice is created equal.)
3) My favorite response so far (http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html?thread=30877479#t30877479z).
no subject
Very true, though that's a very different matter from me, as the author, not thinking about it -- if that makes any sense. Actually, in order to write a convincingly post-racial society (which I don't think Kismet is yet, though it's true that in most parts of the galaxy nationalism is more divisive than race) the writer has to think about it, just like it has to be a conscious decision to write a post-gender society (and it's damned hard to do; Kismet isn't). And the reason is that we're so thoroughly steeped in books, movies, comics and TV where the future is very, very white and European. If race and ethnicity isn't something that the writer specifically thinks about, they're more than likely to end up with something that's largely populated by white, English-speaking Westerners -- not because the writer specifically set out to do it, but because that's what the future looks like in our collective subconscious. The only way to change that is to fight back against it until there are enough visions of a multi-ethnic future that it isn't the default.
With Kismet, I naively imagined a postracial society at the age of 14 (though I didn't know the words for it) and populated it accordingly. As I've been doing more reading and becoming more aware of how my subconscious assumptions come out in my writing, I've become more aware of just how white Kismet really is, and how much of the culture (the way people dress and eat, the way they interact with each other) is very obviously derived from Western/European culture, not, say, Chinese or Middle Eastern culture. And that says a lot about the underpinnings of the world, the people who colonized their galaxy, the way that the galaxy is still being shaped by the aftereffects of colonialism on Earth. Not to mention that in the Kismetverse, Earth no longer exists -- which means that any ethnic group that hadn't made it into space by that point has been wiped out along with the planet ... something which honestly made me feel more than a little uncomfortable when I realized what I'd done.
no subject
I guess what I realized is that, no matter what you write, you're putting your personal politics into it one way or another. If you choose to write about a future society populated by Straight White Males (TM) then that is a political choice just as much as writing about a couple of black lesbians in space. Ducking the issue -- out of some anticipated fear of being criticized by PoC bloggers (oh noes!) or for any other reason -- is still making a statement and people are going to criticize you for it and you're going to deserve it. You are absolutely right that you can't please everybody, but there's a big difference between not even trying, and trying and getting it wrong and getting back up again after you get it wrong. I think something that gets lost on the white-person side of these discussions is that white writers tend to get a lot of credit for doing the latter, as Bear does -- especially when they prove themselves willing to keep engaging after having their mistakes pointed out, to keep trying to figure out how to fix what they did wrong.
And while you are absolutely right that not all advice is created equal, if Jim-Bob the Engineer tells me, "Hey, you got some cracks in your foundation here", I think it's in my best interests to listen to him rather than flying off the handle at the implication that my foundation is anything less than perfect. *g*
no subject
Now I have to go read the comments...(it's interesting that it seems to be mostly Americans/Canadians who are concerned with deliberately trying to make multi-cultural futures...in Doctor Who the future is always cheerfully British (even when it's in New New New (etc) York; and then a lot of scifi anime have these weird futures that are an amalgamation of Japanese and American society, with random details from others. Amime can give a different perspective on cultural appropriation for your average white American viewer, I think, because watching one's own cultural be appropriated is an interesting experience, if not exactly equivalent, when viewed from a position of privilege in that culture...)
no subject
(it's interesting that it seems to be mostly Americans/Canadians who are concerned with deliberately trying to make multi-cultural futures...in Doctor Who the future is always cheerfully British (even when it's in New New New (etc) York; and then a lot of scifi anime have these weird futures that are an amalgamation of Japanese and American society, with random details from others. Anime can give a different perspective on cultural appropriation for your average white American viewer, I think, because watching one's own cultural be appropriated is an interesting experience, if not exactly equivalent, when viewed from a position of privilege in that culture...)
I definitely agree that viewing cultural appropriation from the outside gives you insights onto it that you wouldn't get otherwise; I've had a few "...Oh!" moments when I'm watching other cultures' entertainment and get a little brain-twist about the big blind spots of my own culture's entertainment industry.
Regarding the rest of your quote, though ... I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, I generally noticed Doctor Who's version of the future being more diverse than the futures that you normally tend to see in Western movies and TV. For all the lip service that we pay to it, it's actually pretty rare to see it translated into popular entertainment; it's uncommon enough that you notice it (like The Matrix; much as I didn't like the movies, I did like that about them). Kind of like Americans obsess on separation of church and state while actually, as a society, being much more bound up with religion than a lot of countries that don't worry about it so much, I think we also spend a lot of time fretting about race and representation without really doing much about it.
There's an interesting bit in
... this well-intentioned championing of diversity is specific to countries that are trying to celebrate their appropriation of other cultures. All this write the Other talk—you never hear someone saying that to or within an Indian authorial context. Nobody seems to complain that R. K. Narayan or Anita Desai or Ruskin Bond don’t feature Black or White characters. And I haven’t heard anyone criticise Salman Rushdie or Vikram Seth for their inaccurate or stereotypical portrayal of the White characters they write. Because when they write about White people, it is not appropriative. No one that I know of has borrowed Arthur and Lancelot to turn them into part of the army that helps Rama defeat Ravan. ... On the other hand, there is a disturbing trend of Euro-centric mythology crossing the water to the US, and then appropriating the other cultures present in its service.
... which is something to think about, too: that our fixation on "diversity" can be nothing more than an excuse to cherry-pick shiny things from other cultures.
I like the gleeful abandon with which the Japanese appropriate stuff and mix it together, but it's not necessarily the best model to follow when you add the whole European/colonial complex into the mix ...
no subject
But at the same time, there have been a few times when I've cringed at the words they've put in the characters' mouths. And the less said about the voodoo episode, the better ....
Well, the words the characters say - the Wiseguy heroes are deeply flawed anyway; one would expect them to have some racism as well. Most cops do...
I also admit that the older a show/book is, the more I'm likely to just give it a "pass" as it were. When the author was writing from a position of deeply entrenched racism, I kind of feel they deserve some credit if they even tried to break out of it (I loved the Dr. Dolittle books as a kid, but the portrayal of Africa or South America was...um...rather what one expect of a British man in the '20s. On the other hand, Dr. Dolittle himself considered a Native American man to be the greatest naturalist in the world, and while there's the definite noble savage thing going on, that still...shouldn't it count for something?)
For one thing, I generally noticed Doctor Who's version of the future being more diverse than the futures that you normally tend to see in Western movies and TV.
Hmm - that depends on how you define "diverse." There's more actors-of-color around, but the actual cultures we see - language, clothing styles, etc - all seem very Western-influenced.
Kind of like Americans obsess on separation of church and state while actually, as a society, being much more bound up with religion than a lot of countries that don't worry about it so much, I think we also spend a lot of time fretting about race and representation without really doing much about it.
Yes, this - well, I don't know if we do less about it than other countries do; BBC TV is more ethnically diverse but that is because they do work at it (and also, while they're pretty good with black characters, how many Indians can you count in the Who series? I think BBC shows might look better to Americans because the Brits are dealing with a slightly different panoply of prejudice...)
And you pointed out before that '80s and '90s TV had more "rainbow" casts, when "PC" was a bigger issue - they didn't handle it sensitively, but they were trying to do something...I think maybe we don't fret enough?
Though I gotta admit, reading some of these articles - there is so much resentment and hate out there, and I'm not saying it's not undeserved; I understand it (heck, can't most female scifi readers grasp at least a little what it means to be unrepresented? To never see oneself in the mainstream, except as a stereotype? How many of us identify more with white men than white women anyway, because "white man" is the iconic human being, while as a white woman is the iconic...woman. It's not the same thing by any means, I'd never argue that; and that has been getting better - but it does give at least some perspective, I should think...)
But it does make me...hmm, uneasy, about trying to push past my identity, about trying to write anyone but a non-white American character, because there are people saying that while it hurts them to not see someone like themselves portrayed - *I* don't have any chance of portraying them, I will never succeed in writing outside myself, any efforts I make to do so will only be underlining my own privilege. So...what can I do? If I only write white characters (or American characters, or whatever), I'm excluding; if I try to write anyone not-me I'm appropriating, or writing white characters in other-colored skin...do I have any other options? It seems like whatever I try to write, I'm going to be reinforcing the structures of the society I live in...it's like it would be more responsible for me not to write at all.
Argh...this isn't really aimed at you at all; I've been wrestling with this stuff for a while, and have yet to find any solutions. I'm going to keep writing, and if I get published I'll probably hurt some people, but...can't win 'em all, I guess?
short part 2
which is something to think about, too: that our fixation on "diversity" can be nothing more than an excuse to cherry-pick shiny things from other cultures.
Yes, I worry about this. A little less when I'm picking from Japanese culture, because Japanese creators do it themselves with such joy (not to mention picking from Christian mythology and a slew of other sources) but when it's something like Native American myth, which is appropriated all over the place...on the one hand, might be insulting; on the other, some of the ideas are so dang cool...what is a writer to do?
I like the gleeful abandon with which the Japanese appropriate stuff and mix it together, but it's not necessarily the best model to follow when you add the whole European/colonial complex into the mix
...not forgetting that Japan has its own colonial mindset. WWII, Japan wasn't cribbing the world domination plan from Germany; trying to take over Asia was their idea. One of the things that makes Japanese fiction interesting is that, while they have a lot of contact with American culture, they also have a strong national cultural identity. Japanese kids don't suffer from
no subject
And what you were saying about anger and resentment -- the thing is, it's not indiscriminate anger. It's not that these people, these (mostly) WoC bloggers who are pointing this stuff out, are angry at everyone, ready to take out their wrath on anyone who comes along. I know some of them personally, and I've lurked around these discussions long enough to know quite a few of the regulars by their comments if nothing else, and they're really nice people who are just incredibly tired of dealing with the same shit day in and day out. Honestly, I think it's nothing short of astonishing that someone who's encountered a hundred derogatory, hurtful representations of herself in the media, who's been hurt and hurt and hurt again, is willing to give the benefit of the doubt to yet another brand-new white author, or go out of her way to say something kind to the new white girl on the corner -- which is *exactly* what's happened to me when I've spoken up in these discussions. I don't think anyone owes me kindness or thanks for doing what I really ought to be doing anyway, but people have, like I said, gone out of their way to show it to me, and I am very grateful for that.
It's not indiscriminate anger. It's specific, focused anger. The only reason why you'd need to fear being the target of it is if you do something that causes someone pain, and in that case I think it's safe to say that they're smarting a lot more from whatever it is that you did. (This is more the generic "you" than the specific you, really.)
no subject
Well, the words the characters say - the Wiseguy heroes are deeply flawed anyway; one would expect them to have some racism as well. Most cops do...
True! Although there is a difference between the show displaying racism or sexism in a way that's clearly the characters doing it, and demonstrating it in a way that indicates this is how the writers think the world really is. I'm actually willing to cut them quite a bit of slack because, as you said, the characters are such flawed, dark and nuanced people; a certain amount of casual racism and sexism fits with their world and their time, and there are places in the series where it's very above-board and yet clearly also being condemned by the show itself, in the same way that "Life on Mars" did. And there are also places where they're utterly missing the boat, but I can tell they're trying, as well as they can for their time period. The voodoo episode, which you probably haven't gotten to yet, is a train wreck in some ways, but it also makes an earnest stab at undoing its own train-wreckiness with a scene where one of the OCs (a woman from the same Caribbean island where the voodoo "cult" is from) talks about spirituality between different religions and how it really isn't any odder than some of the things that Christians do. (The show then goes on to undermine its own point with the way that it displays this ... but well, yeah, I do give them points for trying.)
How far along are you guys, anyway? I don't want to get too deep into specifics and accidentally spoil things.
no subject
Yes, I think that's one of the most important points in
I don't get that angry myself about the treatment of female characters in a lot of my shows, but I do get awfully frustrated - and when I multiply that frustration, with not having any place to vent about it without being jumped on by a lot of people who don't understand and aren't trying to...yeah, I can't hold it against anyone for getting pretty damned pissed.
no subject
(...Though I must confess that we spend a lot of time snickering over the '80s hair and clothes and the unintentionally(?) slashy innuendo that every ep seems filled with ^^)
no subject
I've also been thinking about your use of the word "hate" in an earlier comment in this thread -- I'm uncomfortable with that, I really, really am, unless you mean hate directed towards the WoC bloggers who are bringing up problems with Bear et al's books, but I don't get the impression from context that that's what you mean. And I'm not seeing hate here, not from people like Avalon's Willow etc. -- anger that comes from a place of pain is what I'm seeing, and they're actually going out of their way to be fair and stick to the specific people and situations that are pushing them, going out of their way not to tar everyone with the same brush. I think calling it hate is ... not right.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
I really love the way that Wiseguy handles the undercover thing, with Vinnie's cover being built on top of his actual life, his real identity. The conflict just grows naturally out of that; I love how much of the show is just setting the characters in motion and letting them be themselves. Frank ... ahhhh, Frank. I can't help myself -- I fangirl him so hard! He's just such a stubborn, sarcastic little bastard. I am a total sucker for that. (Inasmuch as I have a "type", it's basically the smart, sarcastic, highly competent, slightly broken jerks -- from Rodney to Snape to Dean Winchester to Gene Hunt. Sometimes I worry about me.)