layla | On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog (or a teen)

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venting,
wtf?

On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog (or a teen)

In my usual way of rambling from one LJ link to another in a bizarre and never-ending chain of time-wasting, I stumbled upon this:

http://onelittlesleep.livejournal.com/143885.html

General context: the writer (an adult) discovers that somebody on her LJ friend-list is 16. This totally weirds her out. The real interesting part is not so much the original post, but the comments, many of which just seem to come from a totally different mental place than anywhere my head has ever gone to. The discussion itself is rambling and full of fandom jargon (and also, the teen in question is apparently an idiot), so to save you from wading through it, I'll just pull out some exerpts:

I'm uncomfortable with anyone who's under 18 reading my journal ... I don't want anyone underage to try to talk to me about inappropriate things.
...

I make it a policy not to friend people under the age of 18, just because my experiences and how I relate it to everything comes from a different place than someone that young.
...

On our LJs, we often talk about our private lives and problems, sound-off about or marriage and relationship frustrations and work issues...and even without a sexual element, these are not topics possibly appropriate to lay on a minor.
...

I avoid teenagers on any friending memes I want to participate in. Actually, I generally try to find people 25+ ...
...

I was recently friended by someone who is 16. A first for me, as far as I'm aware. I couldn't bring myself to friend them back.

----

Now all of this is made a little more pointed for a lot of these people because this comes out of a fandom discussion, and this particular fandom has an active porn component, so there *are* legitimate legal ramifications to knowing that underage people are reading your porn. (Leaving aside the fact that underage people read porn in vast droves; I know this because I was once underage myself. Still, there are perfectly legit, if stupid, real-world reasons why a "don't ask, don't tell" policy is safest when one is posting erotica online.)

But then you have the whole "eww, a teenager, I couldn't be friends with one of THEM!" issue.

I think that there's a whole WORLD of difference between soliciting sex from a kid online, and just having a discussion with someone who might happen to be legally underage in their country. I'm a little baffled that this isn't just common sense. If someone is capable of interacting with me on my own level*, I'm not going to ask them how old they are, and I frankly don't care.

Now I'm not a total IDIOT. I'm not just going to randomly hook up with some teenager online and arrange to go to the mall. And honestly, if someone is mature enough to be entertaining (for me) to talk to online, then regardless of their chronological age, they're probably mature enough to understand real-life legal propriety. In short, if I do strike up a close friendship online with someone who turns out to be underage, I can't imagine that I'd need to grill them about their age because at some point it would come up -- and I'd say, "Hey, I need to meet your parents" and they'd say "Hey, that's cool" -- because that's what smart, mature people DO.

Beyond that? I don't demand to know my online acquaintances' ages, and I don't think that lurking minors are some kind of scourge upon the Internet. When I get to know somebody online, it becomes interesting to me to know more about them -- are they male, female, old, young, do they have kids or not, what country do they live in ... stuff like that. Because if you're going to relate to someone on a regular, one-on-one basis, it's easier if you know a little something about the person you're talking to. But if I get to that point with somebody, I already know the most important thing: I find them interesting to talk to. And I'm not going to stop liking them just because they're not old enough to vote.

Maybe I'll feel differently once I have kids, but looking back on myself as a kid, and an older sib to younger kids ... who the hell CARES if someone who's legally underage happens to be reading "Kismet", with its violence and smattering of profanity? Good grief! I was reading Jean Auel's books, with their graphic sex scenes, when I was 9! If they're not old enough to read it, then it goes straight over their heads. If they're old enough to be curious, then why the hell shouldn't they read it? Have you heard 12-year-olds talking amongst themselves? They aren't going to wither up and blow away at a few F-words!

Obviously, I have no desire to be trucked off to jail for selling porn to minors. I'm aware there are legitimate legal reasons for me as a writer to be careful to label stuff appropriately and let parents be the arbiters in borderline situations. When I was selling "Raven's Children" at conventions, I would ask young-looking people their age if they wanted to buy. My general rule was "under 16, need parent's permission". But it tended to be a self-policing thing, because how many 14-year-olds really found RC interesting-looking, anyway? If they did, chances were they had cool parents who were shepherding them around the convention anyway, who would flip through the book while I pointed out the odd bit of nudity and profanity and then they'd be like "Sure, no problem." Strangely enough, the straight-laced 13-year-old daughters of Baptist ministers didn't tend to stop at my table in the first place.

And that's the thing ... I'm not at all skeeved by the idea that the delicate mind of a 15-year-old might be exposed to anything that I write, in my LJ or fiction or elsewhere, because if they aren't mature enough to handle it, I don't really think they'd be giving it a go in the first place. And I think anybody who's interacted with a wide spectrum of humanity has GOT to know that chronological age is a lousy indicator of emotional maturity.

I think what really set me off about the discussion that I linked to above is that somehow it made this gigantic leap from PORN! KIDS! OMG ILLEGAL! (which is at least defensible) to "I couldn't possibly be friends with someone underage because they can't handle adult-level discussion", which is just *stupid*. It's a GOOD thing that adults online, like those in this discussion, don't want to exploit kids; it's just that at some point, to me at least, it crossed the line from being responsible to just being condescending towards teens.

*I originally had typed "on an adult level" here, but then I realized that quite a lot of what I post, especially on the fandom side of things, isn't really a paragon of maturity and well-reasoned discourse. Incoherent rambling is more like it. Still, if you can entertain me with your ramblings and/or be entertained by mine, I don't care how old you are.

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Yet another thing we're of one mind on. (I would say you were stealing my brain, but it's divided among enough people already that even if you had nicked a sliver it was probably so tiny and malformed that you probably tossed it anyway...)

Putting aside the whole pr0n-and-minors thing (I know there's legal ramifications, but they seem so silly to me, especially in regards to text erotica like slash. I figure if someone is old enough to know what the words mean, they're old enough to know whether they're interested or not. I was bored out of my mind by written sex until I was pretty much of legal age anyway...) In regards to the 'ewww, underage kids aren't really people, are they?' attitude...huh. That's just silly. Ageist, much?

I always thought that was one of the joys of the internet - you're only as young (or gay, or white, or foreign, or female, or whatever) as you type. But then I was interacting with 'adults' when I was 17 and thought my opinions, as a college frosh, were every bit as valid as theirs. Now, what with all the anime fanning, a good chunk of my flist is younger than me (including a few way-too-talented-for-their-own-good high schoolers) and I daresay some of them have yet had more 'life experiences' than me.

(...I do still reserve the right to get outrageously jealous when I find that one of my new fic-writing idols is only just 21, and a non-native-English speaker to boot. D00d, not fair!)

I agree about the utter stupidity of p0rn laws ... but coming from a comics background, where people *do* get prosecuted on the dumbest pretexts (OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) I do try to be aware of it. I totally agree with you, though, that if someone is old enough to be interested, they're old enough to read it. And really, if you look at your average novel from the mainstream fiction section, there's PLENTY of sex, violence and profanity. A 15-year-old can -- I assume -- just buy a Stephen King novel, or check it out of the library, if they so desire. But looking up slash on the Internet is a no-no? How's that work?

I always thought that was one of the joys of the internet - you're only as young (or gay, or white, or foreign, or female, or whatever) as you type.

I KNOW! And think that's one of the reasons why this person's point of view ticked me off so bad -- it's like it's violating one of my most deeply-held tenets of online interaction. She's making it sound like a Bad Thing that some teenagers online don't reveal their real ages so adults can make an "informed decision" whether to talk to them ... but why SHOULD they? Especially with people like HER out there, who'll drop you as soon as they find out your real age? The Internet is about as level a playing field as it gets. You don't have to know any more about a person than they want to put out there -- and you know, honestly, if I were the parent of a teen, I think I'd actually RATHER that they didn't spread their actual age about! I'd rather have my kids interacting with adults as fellow adults than broadcasting their under-ageness for all the 'net to see.

I know what you mean about the age spread in anime fandom, too. In fact, my first real in-depth fandom experience online was with Trigun, and I remember on this one mailing list, I was (at 25) the oldest person there, by far. And I thought it was actually really cool, because I got to peek into a subculture (teen girls ... at least, online teen anime fans) that I wouldn't be able to get to know in real life. It'd been 10 years since I was that age, after all, and the jargon and technology were somewhat different, but after getting used to it, I really enjoyed myself a lot. And I never felt like I had to censor myself or talk down to anybody. That's just silly.

By the way, knowing that you're in SPN fandom, you might be interested in the background on the post that I linked to above -- and, being in SPN fandom, you might have already read this post (http://impertinence.livejournal.com/222782.html) ... which is written by the 16-year-old who's the cause of the above. And you can see why I said she's sort of an idiot ... I mean, not that she doesn't have a good point or two scattered in there, but it's basically a post complaining that she's not popular enough in fandom. (Which has inexplicably spawned a comment thread 700 posts long. LJ is funny sometimes...)

I would say you were stealing my brain, but it's divided among enough people already that even if you had nicked a sliver it was probably so tiny and malformed that you probably tossed it anyway...

*snort*

But we've always had bits and pieces of brain in common anyway; maybe it gets passed back and forth or something...

I play Final Fantasy XI and the odds of you having a very dumbed down conversation with a minor is very high. This one kid I was conversing with wouldn't tell me what part of California he lived in because his parents wouldn't let him and that's smart and a good policy.

My own porn/erotica-reading started with me and Danielle Steel novels and it went downhill from there (especially when I discovered Judith Krantz, the perv!). And I was only 14 or so, too. If I'd grown up with broadband Internet, you know I probably would have been doing all-nighters looking for porn and lying about my age. After all, PornoTube (yes, there's such a site) doesn't even need a credit card age check.

I also don't empathize with the idea that you can't be good friends with someone who's a minor. Back when I lived in California in 2001, I met an online friend in person and was surprised to learn that she was 15 because she sounded so mature in the IRC chat room we frequented to talk about X-Men fanfic and other things. But short of us saying every now and then that we felt odd about cursing and talking about sex in front of her, the SubrealiCore accepted her as one of our own. As the years have gone on, the age gap between us has almost disappeared. It wasn't until I learned that she was dating a guy who was older than me that it finally went away for good--mostly because I realized she was "competing" with me for eligible men!

But then again, that was back when I was in my very early 20s. Now I'm almost 30 and if a teen were to strike up a friendship with me, I would be receptive but wary. You're right in that if a person is mature enough to have a conversation with you in text, they're mature enough to have a conversation with you in real life. However, there are things I've done and things I've experienced that don't need to be shared with someone that young on the same level as I would share with you.

Eh... was this rambly enough for you?

*laughs* Not rambly at all! You make good points!

However, there are things I've done and things I've experienced that don't need to be shared with someone that young on the same level as I would share with you.

This is true and thinking about it, I think I'm the same way -- but, for me, this is more something that applies in one-on-one conversations and I don't think it's any different than the way I would always tailor my topics, just a little bit, to the person I'm talking to.

For example, I have friends who are vegetarians, and when I'm talking to them, I'm not going to bring up the topic of hunting. "So, I had this fantastic steak last night..." isn't really appropriate conversation when talking to someone you *know* is a vegan.

On the other hand, I'm not going to question their food preferences ahead of time in the worry that they might be vegans, or censor myself in my LJ (can't talk about eating meat; vegans might be reading!) or refuse to mutually friend somebody on the basis of their dietary preferences -- if they friend me, I'd figure they know enough about what I write here not to be bothered by it, and if they get offended anyway, that's their problem.

Same thing if they're a Christian or 75 or gay or Lithuanian or a computer programmer ... or a gay Christian 75-year-old Lithuanian programmer ... more power to 'em. I'd address certain topics differently if I knew I was talking to a Republican vs. a liberal, a fundamentalist Baptist vs. an atheist, but it's not going to throw a giant monkey wrench in my day.

The legal thing is what makes it different with underage people. But, like you, I've known 15-year-olds who were every bit as smart and easy to talk to as any adult online. I've also known people who moved out of their parents' house and were living on their own at 16, doing just as well as quite a lot of adults. On the other hand, as you say, "receptive but wary" is probably a good tack to take due to the whole legal issue (much like I wouldn't talk about illegal activities in my LJ, regardless of how I feel about the morality of such activities, due to the possibility that it would come back to bite me in the ass).

It wasn't until I learned that she was dating a guy who was older than me that it finally went away for good--mostly because I realized she was "competing" with me for eligible men!

LOL! And there's the other thing about teens -- they grow up! And it seems to me that a teen who's used to interacting with adults online is going to grow up to be a more mature adult, just like teens who grow up having positive relationships with a lot of different kinds of adults in their RL lives tend (in general) to end up as more responsible and well-balanced people than those who didn't.

I admit, I can be a bit paranoid about these things myself. Not because I think less of teenagers, but because it just plain looks suspicious for a middle-aged man to be going around chatting up underage kids. Which is one reason why my userpic is a photo of me in all my flabby, bald, old-geezer glory -- so I can't be accused of trying to pass myself off as something I'm not. Maybe it's different for women, but with all the hoo-hah over "online predators", I feel like I have to be at least a little bit cautious about who I talk to.

Y'know, you've got a really good point that this probably IS one of those areas where it's (unfairly) easier to be a woman, just because of how society sees such interactions.

I still stand by what I said above, but I can see how it would be easier for me to feel that way when I'm NOT in the target demographic that people tend to think of when they think "online sexual predator" ... like what Trisha said above about feeling a little differently about the whole thing at 30 than at 25 because of the wider age spread.

So far, my usual response to unexpectedly finding out that someone I know online is younger than I thought has been something like: "Good God! You're drawing like THAT (or writing like that) at 16?! I ... I'll just be over here stabbing my drawing hand with a spork, thanks..." as opposed to "OMG! UNDERAGE!" But to some extent, I have the luxury to think that way ... hmm. Thanks for the food for thought!

"Good God! You're drawing like THAT (or writing like that) at 16?! I ... I'll just be over here stabbing my drawing hand with a spork, thanks..."

--

Ha! Yes, I've certainly been there. Browsing through DeviantArt is an exercise in masochism...

Ha! Yes, I've certainly been there. Browsing through DeviantArt is an exercise in masochism...

Sadly, given our ages, it's probably a little too late for us to set the world alight. "Youth is wasted on the young..." etc. :(

Pfft. Light, shmight. I'm just over here makin' comics, and can't nobody stop me. If I was worried about being popular, I'd be posting Naruto fanart. ;-)

Wanna draw something for Fantasy Theater, Grandpa? :D

Aw, go on then -- what've you got? Can I wind up the Girl Wonder crowd by drawing a pin-up of Gloriana? :)

E-Mail me at the usual address. I'm hoping that you, unlike Layla, know how to work your e-mail program...

I like what people are saying here. Myself, I've never had a problem talking with anyone of any age in any context. This mostly came from my umpteen years in retail, and deep into my late 20's I was dealing with a lot of young teens. Now the funny thing was I did have a number of teenage girls who would deliberately come into my workplace for the exclusive reason of talking to me. Naturally, I caught a lot of shit from co-workers who made it out to be that I was some teenage ladykiller (in the romantic sense). Truth be told, 90% of those girls came in initially and put on that snotty facade they love so much when dealing with older people-- all I did was talk to 'em like a human being and not some underling wannabe shoplifter. Next thing you know, facade's dropped, they're talking about their lives, and everyone's all hunky-dory. I had guys too do the same thing, and then an hour later I practically had to throw them out because we'd talk up a storm about some show or anime or the like, and I had work to do. But they always came back. Same for adults. It's just a matter of getting on the same wavelength.

All in all, I don't mind how old anyone is. It's never bothered me, and I certainly don't care what people think otherwise when I may be talking to someone half or double my age. I like talking to people. Always have, always will. I don't care how old my readers of my comic strip are either. I keep it PG-13 or lower, so it's all good. Tolerance and compassion-- I guess it's a strength in me I wish more people had rather than coming to some rash conclusion all the time.

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On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog (or a teen)

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